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klabautermaedchen's review
5.0
Probably the longest book I've ever read and so captivating that I picked it up at the end of January and finished it within seven weeks. I've fallen in love with some of the characters and they are written so splendidly that that love affair went from infatuated to irritated to hateful in some cases. It's an overall well-rounded story and definitely a must read for anyone interested in Chinese literature. I'm not surprised that this book has attracted so much scholarly interest, because it leaves so much room for interpretation. As others have said before there is a difference between the first 80 chapters and the last 40 and I agree that I enjoyed the earlier ones more than the later ones (the weeping kind of gets to you). But I am happy to having read that book finally. It motivated me to pick up Chinese again in earnest and I am hoping to read an original version at one point in my life.
spacestationtrustfund's review
4.0
The mid-18th century novel 《紅樓夢》(red-building-dream) has been the subject of so much scholarship that the study of the novel has itself been considered a separate field of study since the late 19th century:《红学》(red-study or "redology"). Critical commentary on the novel, mostly marginal commentary 評點 (comment-point) began while it was still being written, but scholarship only expanded outside of the Sinosphere in the late 20th century. There's a lot of scholarly interpretation and criticism, but who cares about that, right? We're here for the translation talk.
There are two titles of the novel in Chinese:《紅樓夢》(red-building-dream) and《石頭記》(stone-[noun suffix]-chronicle), both of which have been translated into English in various ways. 《石頭記》is usually translated as "The Story of the Stone," but《紅樓夢》has become everything from "A Dream of Red Mansions" to "The Dream of the Red Chamber." The character 樓 (edifice) is particularly tricky, as is the fact that plurals are not typically clearly marked in Chinese, hence the discrepancy between the single chamber and the multiple mansions. Neither is technically more correct. There are a handful of popular English translations, spanning around a century.
The major bonus of this version is the fact that it's in the public domain and thus the most easily accessible. The major drawback is the fact that is very much a product of its time, adhering to the Victorian-era sensibilities and conventions. Although the translation is indeed meticulous, it is severely hampered by the conventions of the time. Although Joly's translation does not necessarily "domesticate" culturally Chinese elements of the original work (meaning certain parts are bound to be inscrutable to the average anglophone reader), it also does not hesitate to "Victorianise" much of the most interesting parts, with the result being some sort of Frankenstein's monster of a dual-cultural novel in which very little is explained and everyone talks like posh old British chaps. It's certainly amusing if you've read other versions and are aware of what is warped, but I wouldn't recommend this as a first venture to anyone not already familiar with the story and/or the process of English translation in the 19th century.
Later editions of this translation have slightly updated the text, correcting minor errors and changing the romanisation from Wade-Giles to pinyin. The version published by Tuttle Publishing includes a foreward and introduction by John Minford and Edwin Lowe, respectively. If reading Joly's translation, I would strongly advise selecting the Tuttle edition if possible, and avoiding the older editions.
Another of the many difficulties in translating the novel is the dialect. I've talked before about how it's functionally impossible to translate dialect from one language to another, particularly when in the context of a Sino-Tibetan language and a cannibalistic Germanic language. Cao Xueqin was well-versed in classical Chinese poetry and prose, having previously written in the more "refined" style, although the novel was written in vernacular 白话 [báihuà] rather than classical 文言 [wényán] Chinese, and would later help to establish the legitimacy of written vernacular Chinese. The dialogue, however, is written in the 18th-century Beijing dialect with influences from the 18th-century Nanjing dialect; Beijing Mandarin is, admittedly, the basis of modern spoken Chinese in the mainland, kind of how British English is considered "standard" (and/or "proper") English.
Not all of the translation details are good, however. The Yangs chose to translate 道人 (dao-person) as "reverend," instead of the more accurate "Daoist priest" or simply "Daoist." On the other hand the Yangs correctly translate 神仙 [shénxiān], an extremely important aspect of Chinese Daoist thought, as "immortal(s)," while the other complete English-language translation, by Hawkes & Minford, translates the same word as "salvation." The concept of "salvation" in this context evokes Western Christian thought, not Eastern Daoist; "salvation" is therefore not only a less literally accurate translation but also a less culturally accurate translation.
This translation, which thankfully uses pinyin, is probably the most readable for an anglophone audience. The major drawback, in my opinion, is the lack of nuance: despite a lengthy introduction and appendices, almost all of the more subtle meaning in the novel is entirely lost. One example would be the communicative function of characters' names—many names are homonyms or homophones with words which either enhance or contradict their personalities and/or allegorical significance, i.e., the character Huo Qi 霍啟 (sudden-begin), whose name is homonymous with 禍起 (disaster-begin) and/or 火起 (fire-begin). While the Yangs' translation transliterates the name as "Huo Qi" with an explanatory footnote, Hawkes & Minford render the name as "Calamity."
Russian: [b:Сон в красном тереме|41566621|Сон в красном тереме|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1535595388l/41566621._SX50_.jpg|523200], translated by Vladimir Panasyuk (1958) — I have not read this translation, but I've heard from some Russian friends that it's also pretty decent
Italian: [b:Il sogno della camera rossa|10154722|Il sogno della camera rossa|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1327736551l/10154722._SY75_.jpg|523200], translated by Edoarda Masi (1964) — I have not read this translation
Vietnamese: [b:Hồng Lâu Mộng|14938900|Hồng Lâu Mộng|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1338949889l/14938900._SY75_.jpg|523200], translated by Vũ Bội Hoàng, Nguyễn Doãn Địch, & Nguyễn Thọ (1969) — I have not read this translation, although I've heard from multiple sources that it is highly accurate to the original, given the similarities between Chinese and Vietnamese; the puns are all preserved
French: Le Rêve dans le pavillon rouge, translated by Jacqueline Alézaïs, André d'Hormon, & Li Tche-houa (1981) — I have actually read this translation, and it's... okay, I guess? I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who can also read English, but it's not bad or anything, comparatively speaking
Czech: [b:Sen v červeném domě|27173530|Sen v červeném domě I|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1444747806l/27173530._SY75_.jpg|47209549], translated by Oldřich Král (1986–1988) — I have not read this translation
Slovak: [b:Sen o Červenom pavilóne|27829855|Sen o Červenom pavilóne I (Sen o Červenom pavilóne, #1)|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1447530995l/27829855._SX50_.jpg|86629602], translated by Marina Čarnogurská (2001-2003) — I have not read this translation
Dutch: [b:De droom van de rode kamer of het verhaal van de steen|59602999|De droom van de rode kamer of het verhaal van de steen|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1636718617l/59602999._SY75_.jpg|523200], translated by Silvia Marijnissen, Mark Leenhouts, & Anne Sytske Keijser (2021) — I have not read this translation. I have an ongoing feud with the entire Dutch language (long story), so I probably never will, to be honest.
There are two titles of the novel in Chinese:《紅樓夢》(red-building-dream) and《石頭記》(stone-[noun suffix]-chronicle), both of which have been translated into English in various ways. 《石頭記》is usually translated as "The Story of the Stone," but《紅樓夢》has become everything from "A Dream of Red Mansions" to "The Dream of the Red Chamber." The character 樓 (edifice) is particularly tricky, as is the fact that plurals are not typically clearly marked in Chinese, hence the discrepancy between the single chamber and the multiple mansions. Neither is technically more correct. There are a handful of popular English translations, spanning around a century.
HENRY BENCRAFT JOLY (1893) — "The Dream of the Red Chamber"Although the first known attempt at translating part of the novel into English was in 1812 when Robert Morrison translated part of a single chapter (the 4th), and the second was in 1868 when Edward Charles Bowra translated the first eight chapters, it wasn't until 1893 that a translation of the complete work was attempted. Cao Xueqin's prose is notoriously difficult to translate even amongst experienced Chinese-English translators, as it incorporates various forms of classical poetry, classical and vernacular language, and culturally specific references, almost all of which are crucial to the understanding of the story itself. Of the original 120 chapters, H. Bencraft Joly, who studied Chinese in Beijing as a representative of the British government, translated 56 before his early death in 1894. This truncation is perhaps ironically appropriate, given that it's generally believed that the author of the first 80 chapters, Cao Xueqin (曹雪芹), did not write the last 40 chapters but rather left the task to Gao E (高鶚).
The major bonus of this version is the fact that it's in the public domain and thus the most easily accessible. The major drawback is the fact that is very much a product of its time, adhering to the Victorian-era sensibilities and conventions. Although the translation is indeed meticulous, it is severely hampered by the conventions of the time. Although Joly's translation does not necessarily "domesticate" culturally Chinese elements of the original work (meaning certain parts are bound to be inscrutable to the average anglophone reader), it also does not hesitate to "Victorianise" much of the most interesting parts, with the result being some sort of Frankenstein's monster of a dual-cultural novel in which very little is explained and everyone talks like posh old British chaps. It's certainly amusing if you've read other versions and are aware of what is warped, but I wouldn't recommend this as a first venture to anyone not already familiar with the story and/or the process of English translation in the 19th century.
Later editions of this translation have slightly updated the text, correcting minor errors and changing the romanisation from Wade-Giles to pinyin. The version published by Tuttle Publishing includes a foreward and introduction by John Minford and Edwin Lowe, respectively. If reading Joly's translation, I would strongly advise selecting the Tuttle edition if possible, and avoiding the older editions.
WANG CHI-CHEN (1929, 1958) — "Dream of the Red Chamber"Wang Chi-Chen, a Chinese-American academic, author, and translator, first published an abridged version of the novel in 1929, then later an expanded version in 1958 (60 chapters, around half the length of the original). Both versions of Wang's translation used Wade-Giles romanisation and emphasised the central romance over the rest of the novel, although the majority of the poetry, poetics, and plot were lost in the heavy abbreviation. The page length barely exceeds 300; in terms of accuracy Wang's translation is only slightly less conservative than Joly's, although it unfortunately lacks much of the meticulosity clearly visible in Joly's efforts. Wang also translated into English various other famous Chinese literary works, including Lu Xun's 《阿Q正傳》.
FLORENCE & ISABEL McHUGH (1958) — "The Dream of the Red Chamber"This abridged translation was based off a 1932 German-language translation by Franz Kuhn (see honourable mentions). Pivot language translations are embarrassing. Don't read it. (There's also a 1957 French translation by Armel Guerne that also used the Franz Kuhn version, and it is similarly embarrassing.)
GLADYS YANG & YANG XIANYI (1978-1980) — "A Dream of Red Mansions"The first complete English translation (all 120 chapters) was done by noted power couple Gladys Yang and Yang Xianyi (also credited as "Hsien-yi Yang"), married translators working with the Foreign Languages Press in Beijing. Their original translation used the Wade-Giles romanisation system, although there have been abridged versions, which I haven't read, so I don't know if they've been updated to pinyin. The Yangs' translation is by far the most literal version available, transliterating culturally specific terminology such as characters' names and explaining in annotations and/or footnotes any homonyms, allusions, puns, or innuendoes that might not be obvious to an anglophone reader. For example, the main family's surname, 賈 [jiǎ], is homophonous with 假 [jiǎ] (false). Another family's surname, 甄 [zhēn], is homophonous with 真 [zhēn] (true). The main character, Jia Baoyu (賈寶玉), has a counterpart in the Zhen family, Zhen Baoyu (甄寶玉), i.e., "false" Baoyu and "true" Baoyu. Another example is the character Zhen Shiyin (甄士隱), whose name literally means "mould-warrior-hidden" but is homophonous with 真事隱 (truth-thing-hidden); at the beginning of the novel, Zhen Shiyin conceals the truth of something that has happened. The Yangs note the majority of these puns in footnotes.
Another of the many difficulties in translating the novel is the dialect. I've talked before about how it's functionally impossible to translate dialect from one language to another, particularly when in the context of a Sino-Tibetan language and a cannibalistic Germanic language. Cao Xueqin was well-versed in classical Chinese poetry and prose, having previously written in the more "refined" style, although the novel was written in vernacular 白话 [báihuà] rather than classical 文言 [wényán] Chinese, and would later help to establish the legitimacy of written vernacular Chinese. The dialogue, however, is written in the 18th-century Beijing dialect with influences from the 18th-century Nanjing dialect; Beijing Mandarin is, admittedly, the basis of modern spoken Chinese in the mainland, kind of how British English is considered "standard" (and/or "proper") English.
Not all of the translation details are good, however. The Yangs chose to translate 道人 (dao-person) as "reverend," instead of the more accurate "Daoist priest" or simply "Daoist." On the other hand the Yangs correctly translate 神仙 [shénxiān], an extremely important aspect of Chinese Daoist thought, as "immortal(s)," while the other complete English-language translation, by Hawkes & Minford, translates the same word as "salvation." The concept of "salvation" in this context evokes Western Christian thought, not Eastern Daoist; "salvation" is therefore not only a less literally accurate translation but also a less culturally accurate translation.
DAVID HAWKES & JOHN MINFORD (1973-1986) — "The Story of the Stone"The second of two complete English translations was done by David Hawkes and John Minford, both British translators who studied in China. Hawkes had already spent quite some time studying the novel ("红学") when Penguin Classics hired him to translate the novel. The first 80 chapters of the novel, those written by Cao Xueqin, were translated by Hawkes, with the final 40, those written by Gao E, were translated by Minford. The five volumes of the Hawkes & Minford translation approaches 3000 pages, with the estimated word count at nearly one million.
This translation, which thankfully uses pinyin, is probably the most readable for an anglophone audience. The major drawback, in my opinion, is the lack of nuance: despite a lengthy introduction and appendices, almost all of the more subtle meaning in the novel is entirely lost. One example would be the communicative function of characters' names—many names are homonyms or homophones with words which either enhance or contradict their personalities and/or allegorical significance, i.e., the character Huo Qi 霍啟 (sudden-begin), whose name is homonymous with 禍起 (disaster-begin) and/or 火起 (fire-begin). While the Yangs' translation transliterates the name as "Huo Qi" with an explanatory footnote, Hawkes & Minford render the name as "Calamity."
SELECTED HONOURABLE MENTIONS (other languages than English)German: [b:Der Traum der roten Kammer|7665953|Der Traum der roten Kammer|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1329466286l/7665953._SY75_.jpg|523200], translated by Franz Kuhn (1932) — I have not read this translation, but I've heard from some German friends that it's quite good and accurate
Russian: [b:Сон в красном тереме|41566621|Сон в красном тереме|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1535595388l/41566621._SX50_.jpg|523200], translated by Vladimir Panasyuk (1958) — I have not read this translation, but I've heard from some Russian friends that it's also pretty decent
Italian: [b:Il sogno della camera rossa|10154722|Il sogno della camera rossa|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1327736551l/10154722._SY75_.jpg|523200], translated by Edoarda Masi (1964) — I have not read this translation
Vietnamese: [b:Hồng Lâu Mộng|14938900|Hồng Lâu Mộng|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1338949889l/14938900._SY75_.jpg|523200], translated by Vũ Bội Hoàng, Nguyễn Doãn Địch, & Nguyễn Thọ (1969) — I have not read this translation, although I've heard from multiple sources that it is highly accurate to the original, given the similarities between Chinese and Vietnamese; the puns are all preserved
French: Le Rêve dans le pavillon rouge, translated by Jacqueline Alézaïs, André d'Hormon, & Li Tche-houa (1981) — I have actually read this translation, and it's... okay, I guess? I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who can also read English, but it's not bad or anything, comparatively speaking
Czech: [b:Sen v červeném domě|27173530|Sen v červeném domě I|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1444747806l/27173530._SY75_.jpg|47209549], translated by Oldřich Král (1986–1988) — I have not read this translation
Slovak: [b:Sen o Červenom pavilóne|27829855|Sen o Červenom pavilóne I (Sen o Červenom pavilóne, #1)|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1447530995l/27829855._SX50_.jpg|86629602], translated by Marina Čarnogurská (2001-2003) — I have not read this translation
Dutch: [b:De droom van de rode kamer of het verhaal van de steen|59602999|De droom van de rode kamer of het verhaal van de steen|Cao Xueqin|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1636718617l/59602999._SY75_.jpg|523200], translated by Silvia Marijnissen, Mark Leenhouts, & Anne Sytske Keijser (2021) — I have not read this translation. I have an ongoing feud with the entire Dutch language (long story), so I probably never will, to be honest.
CONCLUSIONI'm not really one to say which translation is best per se, especially not when dealing with highly stylised fiction where translation is often subjective, so I can only speak for myself personally. I would recommend the Yangs' translation as the best and most literal English-language translation available, although it is admittedly far more difficult to read than Hawkes's & Minford's translation, which I believe is the most accessible complete English-language translation. I don't recommend reading an abridged translation; if you only want to know the story, the Wikipedia page (perhaps unsurprisingly) has an excellent summary of the plot. If you want to read the actual novel, however, and aren't fluent in Chinese—to be fair, the novel is challenging even for native speakers due to the style of prose and frequent period-specific political references—you can't find a better or more complete English-language translation than Gladys Yang's & Yang Xianyi's. In short: Hawkes & Minford domesticate; the Yangs foreignise.
scostello's review
Read the first 80 chapters (generally attributed to Cao Xueqin) but not the last 40 (generally attributed to Gao E)
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